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JimTungLe
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 28
Location: California
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 Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| michael wrote: |
The more one sided links you keep posting, the more skeptical I grow. I fail to see what you are trying to accomplish. The communist regime in Vietnam needs to fall, but I'm not ready to advocate for someone who refuses to speak plainly. |
I understand your points and that is why I am now providing third-party links that are not related to Prince Buu Chanh or the Nguyen Dynasty.
| michael wrote: |
You keep saying that:
- Prince Buu Chanh is the Regent of the Imperial Nguyen Dynasty.
How does that impact anything in Vietnam? How much weight does that carry?
- Prince Buu Chanh is the President of the Vietnamese Constitutional Monarchist League.
Great, why not just call it the I Want To Be President of Vietnam League? |
On March 18, 1994,----Prince Buu Chanh was decorated with the United States Republican Senatorial Medal of Freedom by the United States Republican Senators.
Republican Senatorial Medal of Freedom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Senatorial_Medal_of_Freedom
| michael wrote: |
Did Mohanhda Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr., and Nelson Mandela succeed.
I'm sorry but Prince Buu Chanh can hardly be compared to these great men. Please don't try. All three of them were persecuted greatly for voicing their opinions within the area of conflict. Prince Buu Chanh is OUTSIDE of Vietnam. |
After the Fall of Saigon, on April 30, 1975, Prince Buu Chanh remained in Vietnam.
He had continued the struggle for democracy for Vietnam, but when he was under the treat to be sent to a re-education camp, or "Death Camp", he decided to leave Vietnam, with his wife and three children and continue the struggle for democracy outside of the country.
Re-education camps…or death camps?: http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-69-524-2706/life_society/boat_people/clip2
VIETNAM'S HOLOCAUST: http://www.vietmemorial.org/myweb/thelist.html
Accounts of Imprisonment and Reeducation: http://www.yale.edu/seas/bibliography/chapters/chap9.html
Under the circumstances, Prince Buu Chanh had made the decision that he would be able to succeed, if he was living outside of Vietnam, to gather more support to establish a democracy in Vietnam, than rather than remain in Vietnam, and be sent to a re-education camp, where his Human Rights would not be respected.
The Re-education Camps still exist in Vietnam to this day, and has been reported by the International Christian Concern on Decemeber 27, 2004.
Report of Photos:
http://www.persecution.org/newsite/countrynews.php?newscode=635
Vietnamese language: http://thaoha.free.fr/hoangtocvietnam.htm
English language: http://users.panola.com/vietnam/
_________________
"When we are not devoted to serve the People, we cannot have the right to ask for the favors from the nation." -- Prince Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh |
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JimTungLe
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 28
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Rob Vox wrote: | I took another look at Jim's postings, he stated that communism and democracy can survive togather under the same goverment, ... hmmmm I am not sure if I agree with this.
The corruption of communism runs deeply, to intertwine the communist government with a democratic reform will dig a deeper hole for the communist pigs to hide their corruption.
Hmmmmm, athough your intentions are good, I am not yet convinced of your approach to intertwine the two systems.
Complete elimination of the communist regime is the best way to instill freedom and democracy, but if only it were that easy. I wish we had all the answers but we will keep searching for them. |
Prince Buu Chanh is using the example of Peace and Stablity that has been created in 1993, by the Kingdom of Cambodia.
Although it is not perfect, there is peace in the country of Cambodia.
There is no way to defeat the Communist militarily but only in the election.
In 1989, the Communist Vietnamese retreated back to Vietnam, after their installed their puppet Prime Minister Hun Sen after they defeated the Khmer Rouge.
In 1993, there was a U.N. mandated Elections, and the people of Cambodia voted to establish a Constitutional Monarchy.
Hun Sen won the election as the Prime Minister and since then he has been re-elected.
He is a Cambodian Communist Party Member and has been chosen by the people to serves as Prime Minister.
Though the king or queen may be regarded as the government's symbolic head, it is the Prime Minister, whose power derives directly or indirectly from elections, who actually governs the country.
Definition of a Constitutional Monarchy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_monarchy
_________________
"When we are not devoted to serve the People, we cannot have the right to ask for the favors from the nation." -- Prince Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh |
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sarah_pnk
Joined: 21 Dec 2004
Posts: 112
Location: US
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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However, has the UK not been trying to rid itself of its monarchy? (However, due to family I must be loyal to UK's monarchy.)
_________________
"When the Special Theory of Relativity began to germinate in me, I was visited by all sorts of nervous conflicts... I used to go away for weeks in a state of confusion." Albert Einstein |
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JimTungLe
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 28
Location: California
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| Rob Vox wrote: | I took another look at Jim's postings, he stated that communism and democracy can survive togather under the same goverment, ... hmmmm I am not sure if I agree with this.
The corruption of communism runs deeply, to intertwine the communist government with a democratic reform will dig a deeper hole for the communist pigs to hide their corruption.
Hmmmmm, athough your intentions are good, I am not yet convinced of your approach to intertwine the two systems.
Complete elimination of the communist regime is the best way to instill freedom and democracy, but if only it were that easy. I wish we had all the answers but we will keep searching for them. |
Prince Buu Chanh is using the example of Peace and Stablity that has been created in 1993, by the Kingdom of Cambodia.
Although it is not perfect, there is peace in the country of Cambodia.
There is no way to defeat the Communist militarily but only in the election.
In 1989, the Communist Vietnamese retreated back to Vietnam, after their installed their puppet Prime Minister Hun Sen after they defeated the Khmer Rouge.
In 1993, there was a U.N. mandated Elections, and the people of Cambodia voted to establish a Constitutional Monarchy.
Hun Sen won the election as the Prime Minister and since then he has been re-elected.
He is a Cambodian Communist Party Member and has been chosen by the people to serves as Prime Minister.
Hopefully, the people in a majority will pick another canidate that is non-communist in the next election.
Though the king or queen may be regarded as the government's symbolic head, it is the Prime Minister, whose power derives directly or indirectly from elections, who actually governs the country.
Definition of a Constitutional Monarchy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_monarchy
_________________
"When we are not devoted to serve the People, we cannot have the right to ask for the favors from the nation." -- Prince Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh
Last edited by JimTungLe on Wed Feb 16, 2005 11:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ly
Joined: 29 Dec 2004
Posts: 42
Location: Virginia, US
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:11 am Post subject: |
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Is the horse death yet? We've been beating on it for several rounds now.
- I believe in human rights for VN.
- I believe in democracy for VN,
... but I DO NOT believe a monarchy regime is the right choice for VN.
Thanks Jim for clarification on Mr. Bửu Chánh & Bảo Đại relationship. |
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Ly
Joined: 29 Dec 2004
Posts: 42
Location: Virginia, US
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:38 am Post subject: |
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Reading the texts on the Jim's cited website, this line really bothers me:
| Quote: | | The Order of the Dragon of Annam works peacefully towards the return of human rights and the restoration of the last legitimate government, the Imperial Nguyen Dynasty, in a democratic Constitutional Monarchy.... |
Does that mean:
- After the fall of Imperial Nguyen Dynasty, there had been NO LEGITIMATE government in VN? (absurd!)
- So, Mr. Bửu Chánh and others in this organization do not recognize the Republic of South VN?
- Besides supporting and fighting for the human rights, freedom and democracy for VN, what else does the "Imperial Nguyen Dynasty" REALLY want, restoring the Nguyen Dynasty? Placing VN under monarchy regime ... again? Had not we try that before, and it did not work! |
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sarah_pnk
Joined: 21 Dec 2004
Posts: 112
Location: US
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:27 am Post subject: |
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Apparently, some of our posters are necromancers. 
_________________
"When the Special Theory of Relativity began to germinate in me, I was visited by all sorts of nervous conflicts... I used to go away for weeks in a state of confusion." Albert Einstein |
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JimTungLe
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 28
Location: California
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| Ly wrote: | Is the horse death yet? We've been beating on it for several rounds now.
- I believe in human rights for VN.
- I believe in democracy for VN,
... but I DO NOT believe a monarchy regime is the right choice for VN.
Thanks Jim for clarification on Mr. Bửu Chánh & Bảo Đại relationship. |
In a Constitutional Monarchy the king or queen may be regarded as the government's symbolic head, it is the Prime Minister, whose power derives directly or indirectly from elections, who actually governs the country.
Definition of a Constitutional Monarchy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_monarchy
Ly,
Prince Buu Chanh and yourself, have the same goals, for Human Rights and Democracy for Vietnam.
In a Democracy it is up to the people of Vietnam, if they want a Constitutional Monarchy as the Cambodian people chose in 1993, where the King/Emperor would be a symbolic head, an Ambassador for the country.
While the Prime Minister, who is elected by the people is leader of the Nation.
_________________
"When we are not devoted to serve the People, we cannot have the right to ask for the favors from the nation." -- Prince Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh |
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JimTungLe
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 28
Location: California
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| Ly wrote: | Does that mean:
- After the fall of Imperial Nguyen Dynasty, there had been NO LEGITIMATE government in VN? (absurd!)
- So, Mr. Bửu Chánh and others in this organization do not recognize the Republic of South VN?
- Besides supporting and fighting for the human rights, freedom and democracy for VN, what else does the "Imperial Nguyen Dynasty" REALLY want, restoring the Nguyen Dynasty? Placing VN under monarchy regime ... again? Had not we try that before, and it did not work! |
1. On October 26, 1955, in a disputed nationwide referendum, the people voted to remove the emperor Bao Dai as head of state and elect Diem the first President of the Republic of Vietnam.
When the referendum was held, Diem's troops guarded the polls and those who attempted to vote for the Emperor were assaulted. Diem's detractors say that the fraud was obvious. In Saigon, for example, Diem claimed more votes than there were registered voters in the entire area. Emperor Bao Dai was forced to abdicate rather than divide the country further and issued one last appeal for the country to unite under a democratic government.
For More information reference Encyclopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ngo_Dinh_Diem
So based on the facts the Constitutional Monarchy was the last LEGITIMATE government in Vietnam and was abolished due to the fruad that was committed by Ngo Dinh Diem.
2. Prince Buu Chanh recognized the Government of South Vietnam, he worked as assistant to Colonel Nguyen Be at the Ministry of Rural Revolutionary Development, Chi Linh - Vung Tau Center. From 1971-1973 His Highness was General Director of the 4th Tactic Zone at the Ministry of Economy in Saigon and until 1975 was Assistant General Director of the Vissan Company in the Ministry of Industry, Saigon.
3. The Nguyen Dynasty wants Human Rights, Religious Rights and Democracy for the Vietnamese People.
If the people of Vietnam chose to have a Constitutional Monarchy, Prince Buu Chanh would serve as a Symbolic Head.
If the people of Vietnam, chose to just have a Republic Form government, that is fine.
Prince Buu Chanh will still serve as Regent of the Nguyen Dynasty and he will continue to serve the Vietnamese People through his charity work and conducting the Religious solemn ceremonies, that the Emperor is suppose to conduct at Temples.
Vietnamese language: http://thaoha.free.fr/hoangtocvietnam.htm
English language: http://users.panola.com/vietnam/
_________________
"When we are not devoted to serve the People, we cannot have the right to ask for the favors from the nation." -- Prince Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh |
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Ly
Joined: 29 Dec 2004
Posts: 42
Location: Virginia, US
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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Good! Now, the exchange is getting somewhere.
Like any other southeast asia countries, Viet Nam had a hell of the time to get rid of Kings and Queens. The last "good" king that I can remember was Lê Thái Tông, around 16th century. After that, the monarchy in VN was going down hill. The country was raging wars after wars. The royal court became a battlefield for ambitious kings. One clan tried to kill other clans, divided up the country (Trịnh Nguyễn Phân Tranh), and Nguyễn dynasty was one of them, who won the South area. The country was in disarray, and because of that, VN could not stand to the French power; and she became French's colony for 100 years. So much for the symbolic head, monarchy, and kings/queens.
So, tell me now why VN people need a "symbolic head"? |
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sarah_pnk
Joined: 21 Dec 2004
Posts: 112
Location: US
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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Even the UK does not believe it needs a symbolic head. It only keeps one for tradition's sake, but some are considering its abolition because it costs too much tax money for a ribbon-cutting job. (As stated previously I cannot befor the abolition of UK's monarchy.)
The Nguyen dynasty did not do much during French's rule over Viet Nam. Why should we trust them to do anything for our people now?
_________________
"When the Special Theory of Relativity began to germinate in me, I was visited by all sorts of nervous conflicts... I used to go away for weeks in a state of confusion." Albert Einstein |
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JimTungLe
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 28
Location: California
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Ly wrote: | | Like any other southeast asia countries, Viet Nam had a hell of the time to get rid of Kings and Queens. The last "good" king that I can remember was Lê Thái Tông, around 16th century. After that, the monarchy in VN was going down hill. The country was raging wars after wars. The royal court became a battlefield for ambitious kings. One clan tried to kill other clans, divided up the country (Trịnh Nguyễn Phân Tranh), and Nguyễn dynasty was one of them, who won the South area. The country was in disarray, and because of that, VN could not stand to the French power; and she became French's colony for 100 years. So much for the symbolic head, monarchy, and kings/queens. |
Ly, every single time, I present a fact, I use a reference.
Your above statement seems more about your personal opinion.
If not can you cite some references from official websites concerning the above statements.
_________________
"When we are not devoted to serve the People, we cannot have the right to ask for the favors from the nation." -- Prince Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh |
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JimTungLe
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 28
Location: California
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| sarah_pnk wrote: | Even the UK does not believe it needs a symbolic head. It only keeps one for tradition's sake, but some are considering its abolition because it costs too much tax money for a ribbon-cutting job. (As stated previously I cannot befor the abolition of UK's monarchy.)
The Nguyen dynasty did not do much during French's rule over Viet Nam. Why should we trust them to do anything for our people now? |
You are entitled to your opinion, as the Cambodians had a choice in 1993, so should the Vietnamese People, have a choice to chose if they want a Republic Government or a Constitutional Monarchy.
Like I said before, Prince Buu Chanh would serve if a Constitutional Monarchy is chosen, if not he will continue his role as Regent of the Nguyen Dynasty of Vietnam.
_________________
"When we are not devoted to serve the People, we cannot have the right to ask for the favors from the nation." -- Prince Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh |
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Ly
Joined: 29 Dec 2004
Posts: 42
Location: Virginia, US
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| JimTungLe wrote: |
If not can you cite some references from official websites concerning the above statements. |
Ummmm... What part do you want me to cite? You can open any VN history book and see for yourself that how VNese suffered through out the civil wars, when the Nguyễn & Tây Sơn (Lê Lợi) was fighting. How the Trịnh & the Nguyễn were killing each others. You can also read the part that how Nguyễn Ánh asked French to back him up to win the war; thus open up the door for French to come in VN. And you can also find out what were used to bargain with the French. They are all there, just facts. You can then judge for yourself which kings were good, and which ones were bad.
Jim, I am not here to convince you to lean one way or the other. However, I would like to know YOUR point of views, YOUR opinion on the issue. Only by sharing that we can all learn; so don't quote or repeat someone else's quotes/slogans, but share with with us YOUR thoughts.
BTW, don't put too much weight on "official websites", there is no such thing when it comes to opinions. |
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sarah_pnk
Joined: 21 Dec 2004
Posts: 112
Location: US
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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By all means let the people of Viet Nam choose exactly what they want, but how?
_________________
"When the Special Theory of Relativity began to germinate in me, I was visited by all sorts of nervous conflicts... I used to go away for weeks in a state of confusion." Albert Einstein |
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